Curse

Aera Lure · Jun 11, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

You've probably noticed this, but this game has much less replayability than a lot of other RPGs out there. What does a person do after beating the game once on his main character? Play it again? Repeat. What then after going through pretty much the exact same quests 8+ times in a row. To keep the people playing, Anet has added stuff like PvP and farming/titles. The reason why the player base is leaning away from "questing for the fun of it" is because it's simply not fun after doing it a dozen times or more. The new players see these old players farming/PvPing and they want to be more like them, so they're less inclined to play through the game as it was.

Also, outside of the Guardian title track, there's really no reward for replaying missions, unless you desire bringing more characters through and getting titles for them. For a little while now, even though I have nine characters, I've been focusing on just the one. Mostly its because I'd rather build titles up on her than play more characters through. I also dont really have an urge at the moment to manage heroes on multiple characters the way its currently set up. Guardian has been great fun to pursue. May move into Vanquisher next.

New players likely feel the desire to "catch up", and farming is the way to do that. Rewards through mission play per time spent arent that high.

Anet should consider better rewards for mission replay if they wish to see people replaying them. People move on to farm, work on titles or move into PvP simply because they have done the missions quite a few times already and, add to that, once done on a given character there's no tangible reward for doing them again on that character. Certainly helping out friends and guildies is an aside from this, but generally speaking its why people move slowly away from continued mission play into other areas of the game.

All that said, pursuing Protector and then Guardian titles have been the most fun I have had in the game. For me, I'm just not pursuing them on multiple characters anymore. The timing of GWEN is good for me as I'll have all that to do again very shortly there. Having taken a fair bit of time off from the game these past months meant I have had enough things to do one just one character for a while here. For others, they were ready for GWEN quite some time ago. Really not surprised at all so many would rathr farm, work on titles, chest run, PvP etc. Frequent new content is key to keeping people playing the non-farming, non-title pursuing side of the game, as well as rewards during the story aspect of it.

glountz · Jun 11, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Maybe the OP and some "OP's friends" should group and search for a RP guild, which is I think their kind of play.
In a RP guild, Lore, missions, Fantastic goals and saving the world actually matters.
I think you're just in the wrong guild, or trying to play with the wrong people.
Some people like grind. Some people like competition and do PvP. Some people just like to chat and take GW like a fantastic MSN messenger. And some people need to be immersed in a fantastic lore with people sharing this immersion.
Just move your ass a little bit to find the people you need.

Loviatar · Jun 11, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

GW eventually became (at launch date) a game that appeals to both types. but it's still pretty evident that the original pve side is a poorly disguised tutorial for eventual pvp. the game itself had always been designed to handle balanced pvp from conception, since it's pretty much impossible to design a pve game and try to add balanced pvp on top of that (see: WoW, L2).

as for whether pve ruining pvp, there's actually a lot of people that agrees to that. i myself will with-hold judgement.

according to JEFF STRAIN you are full of it.

from interview it stated just the oppodite that GW started as a PVE game.

Quote:

Evil Avatar News: Guild Wars seems to be a pretty hardcore PvP type game. How does Factions supplement the core game in terms of additional appeal? Has there been an effort made to entice people who didn't like Guild Wars? Have there been any creative strides toward doing unique PvE situations?

JS: Well, I think Guild Wars has excellent PvP, especially in the online role-playing genre, in fact it’s the only game with well-designed well-balanced PvP; but that doesn’t mean the game is a hardcore PvPer's game. Guild Wars started life as a role-playing game, and we continue to support that very strongly. Our goal was always for the PvP aspect to be played after you’ve built up your character and played through the role-playing content, but the focus of the game, and particularly in Factions, what the player can look forward to with the new story campaign is a much tighter story and a denser quest system, meaning that in any part of the world, there’s more to do and more people to interact with – an overall more polished role-playing experience than the original Guild Wars.

so according to this you are simply wrong

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 11, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

"Murdering people" lmao. I'm not even going to try arguing that because it's not worthy of it.

Anyway, why are you so upset about other people doing what they like to do? It's a game, it's about having fun, not about doing what some people think the game is about.

And the only thing that's changed over time is the addition of heroes, which lets players who want to do the storyline and quests on their own without depending upon annoying pugs. So you don't hear about it because these people are busy actually playing the game. Farmers and pvpers are far more visible because they are more concerned with changes to the game.

Regardless, people have been pvping and farming since the beginning of the game. The 55 monk build didn't become popular only yesterday. And any game with a system for money and trading will result in some farming because people will want to get certain items for themselves, which may cost a lot due to rarity. So not only have pvping and farming been around a long time, they are part of the game's structure.

Also, consider that there hasn't been a new chapter in a long time. Most people are finished going through the storyline several times. So they move on to working on other things, or they take a break until the expansion is released.

B E A S T · Jun 11, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

We're thinking on completely different planes. And I'm not speaking religiously either. For the record I'm an atheist. You do what you like, but FOR ME.. killing people-controlled characters is wrong. Getting a thrill out of it is wrong. Very few people in this world can see that, and still fewer see it on their own without "direction". But back to the point.

I dont understand this at all....

In Sudan, Africa, millions of Africans in Darfur have been killed in cold blood by the ruling Arabian Government. It is estimated that in another 5 years there will be another Holocoast in Sudan and East Africa.

Did these hard hearted killers play Guild Wars and decide to go kill people because they thought HA was fun? NO.

You wish the people controlling the characters no harm when you play Guild Wars PvP, you see them as other competitive people playing a GAME controlling pixels casting magical spells at each other. Never have I said "Wow, PvP is fun in Guild Wars, I wish I couldve been born during the medieval crusades!"

Violence has always been a part of societies, in America we paintball, watch boxing and football, play way worse games then Guild Wars (ala Diablo 2

) and still no one has sudden urges to go on mass murders. (except a few phychos)

But, it is your opinion, and I can respect that, I just want you to know PvP players are not bloodthirsty lunatics, just competitve people.

Yichi · Jun 11, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

according to JEFF STRAIN you are full of it.

from interview it stated just the oppodite that GW started as a PVE game.

so according to this you are simply wrong

Its aparent that you must have quit reading after that sentance you highlighted. Read the first half of the next sentance and youll find out why.

Gawayne · Jun 11, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

If you think killing another player in HA or GvG is wrong you should think that killing a Jade Brotherhood or Corsair is wrong too. After all it's a human being killing another human being. Is that alright just because the Jade Brotherhood is AI controlled?

In a RPG everyone there is part of the world, in a table top RPG, like D&D, you ONLY kill human controlled adversaries since there's the Master or Storyteller controlling them always.

In the first page someone mentioned Chess and that's a wonderful comparison. Would you feel guilty after knocking over your adversarie King? You just killed him. No one here like PvPing because we're killing other real people, we enjoy it because real people can be a real challenge, can be unpredictable, different from the AI. AI won't send half of their group to fight you while the other half go to your base without you noticing and kill your Guild Lord, and that's a REALLY simple example of what a real human mind can think of.

It's not about killing it's about competition, just like soccer, basketball, racing and any other competitive sport you can think of. And yes, competition IS about being better than others but that's not wrong, if you don't like it thats absolutely ok, but it's not WRONG. Killing is just the way to win a PvP match in Guild Wars, and in fact you're not really killing anyone, even if Guild Wars were real life, since the guy you just knocked over will be ressed in a couple of seconds alive, healthy and if he's a good loser he may even say "GG pal you're good. Mind giving me some advice on how to improve my game play?".

Nobody hit the Enter Game button in HA thinking "MWAHAUHAUAH time to kill some American bastards, i can't kill them in real life but i'll show them in GW.". Sometimes there is some cursing and some hating just like any other competitive game, it's healthy competition.

lyra_song · Jun 11, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawayne

Sometimes there is some cursing and some hating just like any other competitive game, it's healthy competition.

No. Healthy competition fosters sportsmanship and growth of a person outside of the competition into real life. You carry over skills that make you a better person, wether it be sacrifice, willingness to work hard or a winning attitude.

I fail to see how many of these things can be applied to GW pvp, considering the attitude of many pvp players towards each other and to non-pvpers.

Tahlia Tane · Jun 11, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I started playing GW about two monthes after it's release. I've also played every campaign, but during this time I've noticed something.

GW is less about completing a story, going through missions, and doing quests.

It's more about farming, cooperative or solo (cooperative farming being elite missions, Gate of Anguish, FoW, and UW). Farming being defined as having a goal of attaining items or gold in the game.

It's more about killing other players for sport. I.E. ABing, Aspenwood, GvG, Pvp.

Not too often do you see what guild wars used to be about. Cooperative missions, quests. Events for the sole purpose of playing in the event.. not for attaining it's unique items, usually to sell back to other players for 4 times the price.

I'm going to hear people who agree with me that this is not the guild wars it used to be. What I'm not going to hear is that guild wars as it was.. is broken. I asked myself why this happened, was it major changes to the game structure?

I really don't think it was. I think it's just the player base that has changed. The old players that still play are more for farming, cooperative or solo. Or Pvp. The new players have to keep up with the Jones's as we say.. and they do the same. Sure the arrival of Eye of the North will cause things to change track a bit, until the missions are completed by the majority. Then it'll be back to farming. Back to killing other players as though this were a shooter.

So I guess I should ask.. why are you that farm.. farming at all? What for? Is it not the same as redoing missions over and over? Do you not already have 10 gold storm bows? 10 million gold? Are you just greedy? Why do you spend hours killing players on computer-generated characters? Is it because you can't kill them in real life?

Is there no one who actually PLAYS a game anymore? For the hell of playing it, without murdering people and hordeing gold. Without scamming noobs, without running bots? Am I the only game player still alive in Guild Wars?

.......What the hell?

grottoftl · Jun 11, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

.. killing people-controlled characters is wrong. Getting a thrill out of it is wrong. Very few people in this world can see that, and still fewer see it on their own without "direction".

this quote here in some way reminds me of jack thompson

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 11, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

It's more about farming, cooperative or solo (cooperative farming being elite missions, Gate of Anguish, FoW, and UW). Farming being defined as having a goal of attaining items or gold in the game.

It's more about killing other players for sport. I.E. ABing, Aspenwood, GvG, Pvp.

Not too often do you see what guild wars used to be about. Cooperative missions, quests. Events for the sole purpose of playing in the event.. not for attaining it's unique items, usually to sell back to other players for 4 times the price.

PUGs took a pretty hard hit when heroes were released. The problem (as everyone already knows) is simply that a majority of players don't have a clue on what to do. It's not often that you run into good players in pve, and that's cause pve doesn't really give a hard enough challenge to get people to use a build that works (that is untill Hard mode came). I myself was glad when heroes were released....the horrors of puging ended...impatient/unskilled players ruining missions at the worst times, etc. But, I'd take a good human group over a henches anyday. Besides the fact that hero/henching pretty much everything is pretty damn boring, a good human team is much more effective.

As for pvp, I love it. It seems you like a challenge, but I doubt I can convince you how awesome pvp can be. When I pvp, I don't hold grudges or start typing all kinds of idiotic insults like most people, it's all in good fun. Compared to pve, it's more of a challenge and the builds you use are much more different and complex. I do both pve and pvp (mainly pve though), but most of the time in pve, you can beat pretty much any mission with some random build that uses heavy aoe damage. It gets tiring after a while so I switch between pve and pvp often.

The farming thing is somethin I agree on. Out of all the things in GW, I find it to be the most boring and braindead. I used to farm on a rare occasion to buy some armor I might want, but I always hated it. I've managed to get enough gold from random pve stuff to avoid farming for a while though

Btw, I saw you yesterday in Ruins of Surmia. A friend and I are both working on Hard mode in tyria but are also having problems finding a guild with enough (good) players willing to join us =/

bungusmaximus · Jun 11, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I fail to see how many of these things can be applied to GW pvp, considering the attitude of many pvp players towards each other and to non-pvpers.

While many others are actually polite and friendly, don't exxagerate. I play a lot of TA and there's a lot of people that just congratulate the enemy with their victory because they know they were outplayed.

If I would be pissed off for every time I get owned in GW pvp, LOL

[EW]Elendar · Jun 11, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

I wish daily that we where allowed ffa pve in lions arch so i could eviscerate annoying pvers who whine that soul reaping needs a buff

moriarity · Jun 11, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

guildwars was not made for pve, the devs were just stupid and listened to all the pve whiners on gwonline and here and made the game turn into shit, for example "don't give uax because my pve character worked real hard on a game that wasn't supposed to have grind to get his skills, which i won't even use for pvp." thanks alot.

miles · Jun 11, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

i think my friend hit it on the head when we were messing around in gvg where he said "if your guild reaches a certain low point the game should just disband your guild, say sorry you are bad, better luck next time"

this is a bit extreme but still the point is made, in PvE you will (except for in a very few extreme cases) never get better at this game from just playing, will never gain any knowledge as to how to become more tactical etc because the opposing team (dumb mobs of char) are not getting any better. Because your terrible searing flames assassin with high critical strikes is getting the job done perfectly fine, why change? i see way too many people turned off by pvp because they are just so stubborn as to not realise they are bad, and the only way to get better is to step aside and understand that there may be a better way.

w/e the pvp aspect of this game is fading away as there is such a low skill level to the current play, too little to late i guess.

Nevin · Jun 11, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I repeat.. are there any games out there without PvP, and yet have other people? Are there?

Dungeons and Dragons online, A few others as well.

B E A S T · Jun 12, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by grottoftl

this quote here in some way reminds me of jack thompson

Stole the words right out of my mouth

Ari · Jun 12, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

I'm not against video game violence totally (nor do i care who this attorney is or what he cares about). If I was I obviously wouldn't be playing GW or Oblivion. Non-violence in a violent world.. of course it isn't possible. However I am drawing a line between the AI machine-like.. non-living ..monster in the game world.. and the human-controlled character who looks like a human being, was created by a human being, and the human who controls that character knows what is happening at the exact time it does. Jade brotherhood are nothing more than computer-controlled.. programmed.. non-living.. pictures. No real person behind there. Not only that.. but they're gang-bangers, drug-dealers, and worse, which is why we kill them at all according to the game. I'm gonna assume the average GW player.. ain't those things and if they are.. I'll never know it.

True, GW has no blood decals, gore.. flying heads. But death is death. Still seeing as the news has worse than GW, I'll give it that it's just my own personal ETHOS, as was said before. I am not a PvPer. You can bet your shiny Mini Ghostly Hero that I could play with the best of the PvPers. If I wanted to. And I used to. Not anymore.. I am PvEr. Only. And I gave you my reason why, sorry if it upsets.

Point is.. this is supposed to be a cooperative game. And you know.. In order to find the guild and/or people I need to help me in hard mode, which is what spawned this whole discussion in the first place.. I kinda need to play with them. Well that's a little hard to do when no one plays with anything but henchmen, heroes, and guildmates now. So if your guild dies a little.. like mine.. good luck finding what you need if you've got specific needs beyond what the majority like.

Needless to say.. all I could come up with as an actual solution to anything was to globalize the search feature. Like I said.. if you thought I wanted to change the face of GW's base you gotta another thought coming. I'm a girl gamer. I've been here since 2 monthes after release, and I say PvP has a much bigger role in GW than what it did a year ago, something a PvEr has trouble with.. when it is very much controlling the course of the game. Yes, the EULA.. yes game experience may change.. that's to cover lawsuits for those who would look for something to sue for.

So if all are done complaining about my views on Pvp and violence in video games, heh.. maybe something could be done to save the random group. Not all people in or looking for PUGs are noobs. Some just might be social, looking for a guild or friends for the list, or looking for a challenge. Globalized search option.. might help.. and it might not. Only thing i can think of without "changing the face of the player base".

Quote:

this is a bit extreme but still the point is made, in PvE you will (except for in a very few extreme cases) never get better at this game from just playing, will never gain any knowledge as to how to become more tactical etc because the opposing team (dumb mobs of char) are not getting any better.

Oh but they do get better. AI, skills.. change all the time. Ever done the forge run? Yeah. You might know what I mean. Saying that PvE is no challenge.. that it does not change, is fallacy. It's why PvE have little respect for PvP and vice versa. As for PvP, much of the challenge is guessing what build to use against the popular builds. I remember the old ranger spirit spammer build.. the old Minions Zerging. I was a Pvper, once. And never ever again. For me there is no challenge there. There's more of the back-talking, "noobs" using wiki-posted builds, and racist comments about Koreans. Healthy competition? If you call hearing Jap, Rice-Growers, Coons and such healthy comments. Seems the enforcement of EULA is a bit lax on that point, eh? During my Pvp time, it was the Koreans. I'm an American player, and I find Americans very ..wordy.. during pvp. Today, the "Pvp for Pvers" or "Invasion of PvP on Pve Territory".. Aspenwood.. you can hear it in local pretty often. Do I do aspenwood? Sure. There's NPCs there, and it's a bit hard to progress in Factions without it.

B E A S T · Jun 12, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

I'm an American player, and I find Americans very ..wordy.. during pvp.

Im going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Many Americans (At least in my AB alliance, which is international BTW) are very polite towards people from diffrent countries, and help correct them while speaking english, or vice versa. One of the guilds in the alliance is entirely French, and there is no bad blood between people.

I understand in PvP battles it is a little diffrent with the competition etc., but for the most part there is no hatred between countries like the guy from Brazil stated previously in this thread. There will always be jerks who will say stuff, American or not (in HA there are some..er..racist Germans) but to stereotype all of PvP is unfair.

miles · Jun 12, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

Oh but they do get better. AI, skills.. change all the time. Ever done the forge run? Yeah. You might know what I mean. Saying that PvE is no challenge.. that it does not change, is fallacy. It's why PvE have little respect for PvP and vice versa. As for PvP, much of the challenge is guessing what build to use against the popular builds. I remember the old ranger spirit spammer build.. the old Minions Zerging. I was a Pvper, once. And never ever again. For me there is no challenge there. There's more of the back-talking, "noobs" using wiki-posted builds, and racist comments about Koreans. Healthy competition? If you call hearing Jap, Rice-Growers, Coons and such healthy comments. Seems the enforcement of EULA is a bit lax on that point, eh? During my Pvp time, it was the Koreans. I'm an American player, and I find Americans very ..wordy.. during pvp. Today, the "Pvp for Pvers" or "Invasion of PvP on Pve Territory".. Aspenwood.. you can hear it in local pretty often. Do I do aspenwood? Sure. There's NPCs there, and it's a bit hard to progress in Factions without it.

forge runs are not difficult lol. all it takes is like 1 practice run to figure out where shit spawns.the challenge in pve is easily repeatable, and only at its highest level (elite missions, etc) is it comparable to pvp in terms of complexity and cooperation. mobs never change the way they agro, their skills never change. all they do is chase after you in hopes they can mindlessly hit their skills in coordination with how low the corisponding health bars. the ai is nothing compared to that of a human therefor comparing the 2 is just dumb at its most basic level

i dont care about shit talking in pvp as if you are offended turn off local chat, ignore people, be the bigger man...

the fact you consider alliance battles in their current form as pvp is comical in the eyes of anyone who pvp's